Drone-helicopter cooperation: “We are not late, on the contrary” (General Cruzille, commander of the ALAT)

At the start of the war in Ukraine, many observers questioned the capabilities of helicopters in a high-intensity conflict. How can we explain this return to grace today?
At the very beginning of the conflict in Ukraine, in 2022-2023, there was indeed a big questioning about the place of the helicopter with widely relayed images of destroyed Russian helicopters. But we were also able to question the place of the tank, of the infantry… The ALAT (Light Aviation of the Army, editor’s note), which is a little over 70 years old, is constantly evolving, and this observation has once again pushed us to innovate by integrating into the maneuver the extraordinary contribution made possible by drones. Today, the situation has very clearly evolved in a positive way. I would also like to remind you that the Poles have planned to acquire 96 Apaches. When we ask ourselves whether the attack helicopter has a future, Poland’s decision answers it.

Have you reached a satisfactory level in drone-helicopter cooperation?
You should never consider that everything is won. As commander of the ALAT I must answer crucial questions in several temporalities: “Am I capable?” Am I operational today to be ready this evening as requested by the Chief of Staff of the Army? At the same time, am I preparing my operational capacity for 2035-2040? “There is no question of saying that in 2040, we will finally have a droneized ALAT. My goal is to go there now. All of our regiments – conventional and special forces – already integrate cooperation between drones and helicopters into their modes of action. The Orion exercise confirmed the ability of the 4th Air Combat Brigade (4th BAC) to act in depth, which is its most demanding mission by integrating into a combined arms and joint maneuver, with extremely complex scenarios. It also confirmed the ability of the brigade to operate in a drone manner, in its tools and modes of action.

How do drones fit into your doctrine within the ALAT?
The ALAT is part of the overall dynamic of the Army, where all operational functions integrate drones. We have a roadmap on the droneization of aerocombat with three major priorities. First priority, the implementation of drones from the ramps or the hold of our helicopters. These are Air Launched Effects (ELA). The pilot or a member of the hold can then pilot them in order to see further, shoot further, confuse the enemy… The crew fulfills its mission as quickly as possible. security or as efficiently as possible, manufacturers are developing it and it is happening very quickly. The second priority concerns the tactical wingman drone, the Loyal Wingman, which is more ambitious. use of artificial intelligence We can entrust it with the recognition of an axis for example. Its use must always be evaluated in terms of cost, which must be accessible and possibly consumable. A tactical wing drone which costs as much as a helicopter. more limited interest. Last point, we are continuing the development of collaborative combat with all of the Army’s drones in order to further strengthen the coherence of our action with other operational functions.

Can drones ultimately replace helicopters?
The objective of our roadmap is not to replace manned aircraft with unmanned ones, but to increase our operational capacity by combining manned and unmanned aircraft. Thus, we can imagine that in the medium term a helicopter will be able to evolve with drones around it to increase its capabilities.

“Que horizon?
The objective is to have an industrialized system by 2035-2040. But the sooner the better. I hope we work much faster. Today, in the helicopter regiments, we have drones purchased off the shelf with which the crews train to carry out this type of mission. At the height of the Orion exercise, the 4th BAC deployed around thirty helicopters – including around ten Spanish helicopters – and around ten drones. These were integrated into the maneuvers in a real way, on the ground: for remote observation, for laser designation for the benefit of a Tiger which could then fire its Hellfire missile beyond direct sight, to play the role of remotely operated munitions (MTO). FPV drones [télépiloté avec une vue à la première personne] were actually deployed from the hold of the helicopters. In addition, the brigade also simulated the use of around a hundred drones.

Compared to other countries, is ALAT behind or ahead?
When we look at our Western counterparts, there are sometimes different modes of action because our industrial, capability and doctrinal challenges are not necessarily the same, but this dynamic of drone-helicopter cooperation is becoming more widespread. The Americans, who are obviously on a different scale than us, are already integrating it. The British and the Germans are also in this approach. We are not late, on the contrary.

Will ALAT’s missions evolve with the arrival of drones?
In the doctrine of employment of the army corps, acting in depth is one of our priorities. We must cause as much attrition as possible among the enemy before he joins the line of contact. With helicopters, we have this ability to strike an advancing enemy, approximately 100/120 km behind this line. The ongoing developments will strengthen the air combat brigade in its ability to carry out this mission thanks to the drones which will illuminate its progress. We will be able to concentrate on fire management. Another part of the brigade’s missions consists of intervening in the rear zone to support other operational functions – by plugging a breach made in our front, for example – or providing logistical support. During the 2023 Ukrainian counterattack, the Russians used their Kamov Ka-52 behind the contact line. They participated in the attrition of Ukrainian ground forces by firing their missiles at long distances, between 10 and 14 km.

How many drones can be managed by one pilot or crew?This raises the question of cognitive load. There are two approaches [pilote ou membre d'équipage]. In terms of cognitive load, a Tiger pilot managing a drone carrying out reconnaissance for his benefit 10 or 15 km ahead is already good. With the help of artificial intelligence, a swarm of drones will be able to carry out reconnaissance on behalf of the Tiger. We are really in joint development with the industry to manage this cognitive load. Second approach, a crew member who operates the drones from a helicopter hold. The Cheetah, which will arrive soon, will offer us really interesting modularity. It’s a helicopter in which we can put a team of drone operators in the hold and at the same time a crew that focuses on managing its own mission. The Cheetah really fits our needs at the moment.

What is your vision in terms of mass when the ALAT fleet is relatively modest (270 aircraft) given the attrition ratios in a high intensity war?
The notion of mass is absolutely determining. To enable me to engage my resources with the best possible efficiency, I must be certain of having sufficient mass. The ALAT has 270 helicopters, which is good on a European scale. By adding drones to our operational capabilities, this offers me the opportunity to increase the mass of our aerocombat capabilities. Another priority, maintenance in operational condition (MCO) which also makes it possible to preserve mass with an effective, solid and responsive support system. The regeneration of devices is an important point for increasing our ability to operate over time. It’s a balance between what the industrialist can provide on the one hand, before and after the engagement, and my military maintainers on the other. Once in a high-intensity engagement phase, I need to rely on my “projectable” maintainers.

Are you satisfied with the availability of your devices?
We do not communicate on availability figures. What I can tell you, however: we have never given up on an operational mission due to an availability problem. It now allows us to meet our operational needs. Am I happy with the availability? Yes. Availability allows our crews to have the sufficient level of training to be engaged on short notice in operations. The experience of recent weeks proves that ALAT is up to par.

In the event of a high intensity conflict, have you already planned a ramp-up plan?
The response is global within the armies, which will need to have availability and a regeneration rate, which increases in the event of high intensity conflict. Within the ALAT, we have integrated it well.

This is a double-edged advantage: the faster the helicopters are regenerated, the more they will fly and the more the cell will age. It will therefore be necessary to replace them much more quickly.
In a high-intensity conflict, if you want to have the best chance of winning, your action must be rapid and brutal. Otherwise the front will freeze. You have to be offensive from the start and be able to commit your resources to decisive tactical effects to win the decision quickly. If you do not have sufficient mass, the risk is not to commit all of your resources to maintain a defensive approach. This allows you not to lose, but the goal is to win.

Do we need more Tigers?
Today, there is no discussion underway at the Army level to increase our Tiger fleet. The complementarity of our fleets allows us to respond to a wide range of missions.

Still on the Tigris, the renovation only concerns a small number of devices. Is this enough?
The mid-life renovation of the Tiger, which has been decided, only concerns at this stage a first tranche of 14 aircraft, which will have an increased operational capacity (armament and connectivity in particular). There is a review clause in 2028, that is when the decision will be made to increase the number of renovated Tigers. It is also at this time that it could be decided to equip the future Cheetah with anti-tank missiles; studies are underway. We are also in the process of developing the capacity of our Tigers to be deployed on the frigates of the French Navy. We are used to deploying on larger amphibious helicopter carrier (PHA) level platforms, with a very long-standing cooperation with the French Navy.

In terms of the fight against drones, the Tiger demonstrated its capabilities in the United Arab Emirates with the neutralization of Iranian Shahed…
This issue of the fight against drones had been well identified for several years. It was provided for in the doctrine and the aerocombat brigade had already proven its ability to destroy drones in flight during training. When France decided, in a defensive logic, to deploy ALAT helicopters to participate in the anti-drone fight, the crews were ready. The implementation of operations, in real conditions, proved this: the Tiger used its 30 mm cannon in operations, preferably at night, and it worked well with a certain number of drones destroyed. It also has rockets. Finally, its Mistral 3 air-to-air missile firing capability was quickly activated. It is capable of fighting anti-drones across the entire spectrum.

Is the ALAT integrated into the anti-drone fight system?
The ALAT offers a range of possibilities for anti-drone combat, which can be integrated into a more complex system. We are truly in a joint logic, with a multi-layered approach. At the Army level, we offer a capacity that complements that of the Air Force. The objective is that everyone at their level, depending on speed and distance from the potential target, can contribute.

Conversely, do your helicopters have the means to ensure their self-protection against drones?
It is the eternal story between the sword and the shield, which requires permanent development. The surface-to-air missile is one of our classic enemies. We have jamming devices, an ability to launch decoys, automatically or manually. There is now a new enemy, the drone. There are developments underway to increase our protection against the drone threat. Like the Ukrainians, we are working on drone detection and jamming capabilities.

Are you satisfied with the updating of the military programming law, including the continuation of certain old fleets such as that of the Gazelle due to the delay in delivery of the Guépard?
I don’t feel that way, the delay being minimal. The Cheetah allows the replacement of five fleets in the three armies. There is a logic of rationalization of the MCO. This will allow us to have more effective support. The objective for the Army is to ultimately be equipped with 80 Cheetahs. This is more or less the volume of our Gazelles today. The first Cheetahs are expected at the ALAT school in 2029.

They were not expected in 2028…
The reception of the first Cheetah by the Army is planned at GAMSTAT at the very beginning of 2029, after a few weeks of verification operations by the DGA. It will arrive three months later at EALAT, and the 3rd RHC will be the first regiment equipped. I add that the first device (from GAMSTAT) will be implemented jointly by the three armies and the DGA, so as to “open up the areas of instruction” for the School as quickly as possible. This device is also the one which will be used for the instruction of the first pilots by the industrialist, among whom a large majority of instructors of School.
Very quickly a second device will have to be delivered to GAMSTAT, this will be used for experiments in the fields of droneization and connectivity – that is to say that we begin to experiment with the developments of the device very shortly after its release. entry into service to benefit as much as possible from short loop innovations Our training tool will be ready to begin training as soon as the Guépard arrives, which will technically be a very efficient device. Tactically, in terms of droneization, this device will have a wide range of missions. The crews really have strong motivation today to be qualified on the Guépard.

Result, you will operate the Gazelle much longer than planned?
The Gazelle, which is a rustic helicopter, is very easy to use and deploy. She aims to pass the baton to Le Guépard. So yes, I will keep the Gazelles for a number of years to come. Especially since they have a significant anti-tank capacity for our Army. I really need to keep this ability until the Cheetah can take over. Keeping a rustic two-ton helicopter has an interest, taking into account the advantage/disadvantage ratio. It’s always interesting in addition to new generation helicopters. We can broaden the problem: tomorrow would the ALAT need, in addition to its fleets, to have a low-tonnage helicopter? We have not yet put this subject on the table. But we could say why not with a caveat: we must be careful not to multiply the fleets and we must also consider that these helicopters could be entirely droneized to carry out the associated missions.

When it comes to maintenance, are manufacturers keeping up?
Airbus Helicopters has restarted production for some of the Gazelle parts which were no longer produced by subcontractors. Today, this industrialist has the capacity to reinvest certain skills or certain productions to enable us to sustain and maintain our fleets. We are truly lucky.

Besides droneization, what will the Cheetah bring to the ALAT?
The Cheetah will bring us other capabilities than those of the Gazelle. We await it with motivation. This device will offer great modularity. Studies are underway to integrate slightly larger armament, in particular to equip the Guépard with an anti-tank missile. It also has a cargo hold, which could strengthen our maneuvering helicopter capability. It could do EVASAN [évacuation sanitaire].

Do you plan to renew the fleet of light aircraft you have in the near future?
We have fourteen aircraft, including nine TBMs based in Saint-Jacques-de-la-Lande and five PC-6s in Montauban. Planes which were engaged during Orion and which confirmed the relevance of these means. We are preparing the renewal of this fleet, which is not called into question, on the next Military Programming Law (LPM). We are already working on alternative tracks.

Does the return of electronic warfare have an impact on the use and/or doctrine of use of helicopters?
We are considering the integration of electronic warfare capabilities for our benefit, but also for the benefit of other operational functions of the Army. Can the ALAT help to maneuver another operational function by using a helicopter which will have a jamming capacity for example. Another example, this jamming capacity could also be useful to the ALAT in the context of an action in depth. We are inspired by what others are doing countries today and who are directly concerned by this type of issue. There is indeed work underway today to integrate and develop this electronic warfare capability.

What is your involvement in joint projects to design what future generations of helicopters will be?
There are two projects in development, the NGRC (Next Generation Rotary Wing Aircraft Capability, within the framework of NATO) and ENGRT (Next Generation European Technologies for Rotary Wing Aircraft, financed by the Union European). Obviously, we are part of it. We take advantage of our proximity to Luxembourg to send, almost two days a week, one of the officers from the general staff, to participate in discussions on the technological building blocks for the future European helicopter project within the NATO framework (NGRC). It’s essential.

The countries seem to have somewhat returned from very high speed to more classic configurations.
Today there is a pragmatic approach. What is my need? For what cost/effectiveness ratio? One of the constraints is that what you gain in speed, you lose in payload. When the Americans developed the Cheyenne II, it was to move quickly from one Pacific island to another. We who have a greater vocation to engage in a European theater, we need autonomy and payload, not necessarily high speed. Do we need to go for 450 km/h by developing a more expensive, more bulky aircraft, complicated to deploy on a French Navy vessel or in the A400M? Today, this does not correspond to the needs of the Army.

Do you think this is of no interest?
We must remain part of this technological development, even if it does not meet the current operational needs of the Army. Airbus Helicopters has developed the Racer, which is an interesting concept to follow. It is important that our manufacturers are always in this dynamic of development and innovation.

You talk about autonomy and payload. Would you need a future platform that is heavier than what you have today?
If, tomorrow, I want to have heavy helicopters, how many Caymans must I give up? We will have around 80 Caymans eventually. I do not want to give up part of this fleet of medium maneuvering helicopters to develop a micro fleet of heavy helicopters. Not to mention the issues of support, cost… Today, there is not one of our high intensity deployments that does not operates within a multinational framework. We have a certain number of European partners who have this heavy helicopter capacity: the British, the Germans, the Spanish… It could therefore be used for the benefit of the force by these countries.

It’s the calm of the old troops…
We must not be complacent in what already exists. The great strength in France is our defense industrial and technological base (BITD). We have extraordinary capabilities: our four major partners – Airbus Helicopters, Safran Helicopter Engines, Thales and MBDA – are responsive, know our needs and, above all, we have regular exchanges with them. If we are going so quickly on the droneization part, it is thanks to this direct feedback. It’s still simpler than if I had to communicate with foreign companies. This is obviously an opportunity for our armies.